Source: Bahá'í Library Online (bahai-library.com), curated by Jonah Winters. Used by permission of the curator. Original citation: Mabel Hyde Paine, Notes on Shoghi Effendi's Table Talk, bahai-library.com.
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

Notes on Shoghi Effendi's Table Talk

Mabel Hyde Paine

1931

"Excerpts from Notes on Shoghi Effendi's Table Talk"
Haifa, Nov. 10 to Dec. 2, 1931

[page 1]

Bahais are loyal to the government. Bahais should seek administrative
positions, but must not accept political positions, and must explain why.
Some Bahais hold important administrative positions in Persia. One Bahai
is chief Magistrate of a city; one is head of an imperial bank. This kind of
thing will eventually happen in America. In Persia the Cause is prominent
enough so that civil authorities look to Bahai methods of administration
as models.

Bahais are not to meddle in politics. One meaning of this is that they are
not to seek political office, but may, administrative. They do not hold
political office because holding such office involves corrupt practices.
Non interference in politics is very important (this principle is new and
unique; other religious bodies make the mistake of interfering in politics).
An example of the evil of interfering in politics was a Persian (Ali Akbar)
in Moscow, the most capable Bahai in Russia. He was quite friendly with
the chief officials of the Soviet government for a time. Finally he became
involved in politics, lost favor with the officials in power and was exiled
to Siberia. Bahais in Russia have been suspected by officials of having
dealings with parties in Persia desiring to oppose the Soviet government.
They were able to convince the government that they did not do this, and
that it was a principle of their religion not to interfere in politics.

When asked whether Bahais should vote he answered that it was better
for them not to. If questioned about their position in this respect they
have a good opportunity to explain their attitude of loyalty to the
government. Their position in regard to voting is a little like that of many
good people in England, who had achieved party politics but voted for the
national party in the last election because the country was in such a
plight.

This principle of non interference in politics would be a guide in deciding
such questions as whether Bahais should sign the petition circulated by
the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. Bahá'ís should
question such enterprises and find whether they are political. If not, they
should sign.

Bahais are not conscientious objectors because the conscientious
objectors disregards the good of the world and seeks only to be at peace
with his own conscience. Bahá'ís, on the other hand, state their position as
loyal members of the state who yet seek exemption from military service.
If this is granted, good; if not, they obey the government. Bahais must be
wise and courageous in taking their own stand before the world. Bahais
will have their courage tested in such matters. The Bahais should find out
whether they could gain exemption from military service in something the
same way as the Quakers.

There is to be another war. This will involve the world world. This is
necessary, because a new political structure is needed and cannot be
erected until the old structure is destroyed. The nations are not yet ready
to give up their sovereignty. England is not more ready that the United
States to relinquish her sovereignty, in favor of the League of Nations.
Shoghi Effendi does not see any immediate prospect of war.

[page 2]

President Wilson gained the ideas for his 14 points from the Bahai
writings, but did not advance to the point of accepting the Bahai Cause. He
was right in trying to lead the United States into the League. The United
States must give up its policy of isolation. Wilson saw this but was
hindered by politicians. Abdul-Baha said that Wilson's work was the dawn
of peace and Baha U'llah's ascendency would prove to be the rising sun.
Bahais must show their admiration for Wilson and his ideals though such
ideals are unpopular in America. The Bahai teaching about a universal
league of nations is now unpopular, but we should be loyal to it.

The Mandate Commission of the League of Nations has recommended to
England expropriation of the Baghdad property. England has recommended
the same to the government of Iraq. They recommend destruction of the
houses on the property and making the land into a park. This, Shoghi
Effendi deplores.

Most of the Persian representatives in foreign capitals are against the
Cause and misrepresent it.

The Catholic Church is weak on the whole, but strong in America. They
have just received a heavy blow in Spain. Abdul-Baha has said that
eventually all the sects will scrap their differences in order to oppose the
Bahai Cause.

A letter from Queen Marie explained how she was prevented from visiting
the Holy Shrine and Shoghi Effendi, and how she regretted it. She wrote
something for the Bahai World which will be reproduced for a
frontispiece.*

Baha U'llah says that constitutional monarchy is the best form of
government. This does not mean necessarily that all governments will
adopt this form, but probable there will be a tendency this way, especially
so there seems already a reaction from democracy. Some pomp is
necessary in order to impress people with the majesty of kingship, but
England spends too much in this way.

The principle of obedience to a just government meets something of a
problem in Russia, as some might say the Russian government is not a just
government. Shoghi Effendi thinks this government should be obeyed, as
the Russian people and most of the other governments recognize it.

Russia and Germany have each a great future. Russia will discard
Sovietism. In answer to a question as to whether it will be by a gradual
development or sudden change, he replied that there will be a destructive
phase and new institutions will evolve. Two disruptive forces are now at
work, Sovietism (extreme left) and irreligion. A reaction will come in
favor of religion and against democracy. The right catchword in regard to
government is: "Government of the people, for the people, by the best of
the people." The common people are not intelligent enough to make pure
democracy successful. England will soon see that the seeming victory of
democracy is not lasting. There will be a reaction and Labor will get in.
All this will show a lack of stability in a popular electorate. England has
the most democratic government in the world; i.e., the government is most
immediately responsible to the electorate.

*Her sending this contribution to the Bahai World will be an answer to
those who say that she did not wish to visit the shrines.

[page 3]

Bahai organization is not very different in form from other organization.
The difference is that Bahais have the principle of loyalty in greater
degree than others. They have the principle spirit of faith, e.g., the
Esperantists tried to spread Esperanto through the world. They didn't
succeed, but when the Master wrote one line to the Bahais in Persia
telling them to study Esperanto, not because it would be the universal
language, but because it was a universal language, they studied it.

The supposed quotation from Abdul-Baha that the Bahai Cause is not an
organization should be; "You cannot limit the Bahai Cause to an
organization." The Bahai Cause must be organized, just as anything must
be organized. Institutions are necessary. Most institutions are now
decadent, but without institutions you have nothing but anarchy. Bahais
regard institutions not as ends, but as means.

Bahai government is neither purely democratic not autocratic. It is half
way between. The House of Justice is not responsible to the electorate but
to God. The two stage election diminishes the democratic element. The
Guardian cannot legislate. He has only one vote in the House of Justice. He
interprets the Sacred Books. The House of Justice is responsible to God
and is inspired. How far this is applicable to national and local bodies is
not so clear.

Some one said that some think that the N.S.A. is elected by those who vote
by mail. The Guardian replied that the few days of the convention is too
short a time for delegates to make acquaintance of the friends. They
should seek all through the year to do this. He does not think the reading of
all names voted for, an especially good proceedure.

National committees should not dictate but should consult the desires and
talents of individuals offering their services.

The N.S.A. is in the peculiar position of being absolutely dependent on
voluntary support of the believers. Any appeal given out must be
dignified.

Local Assemblies should advise believers in regard to private affairs,
although Persia carries this custom too far. To the question as to whether
local Assemblies should take up private problems of an individual believer
without being asked, he said probably not unless the matter was affecting
the interests of the Cause.

Bahai literature cannot go into Persia. It is kept out by the
government.

In each country the Bahais have an expecial problem. In America it is
racial. The main thing is to show the Negro in social ways that we have no
prejudice. Make sure that the whole Bahai group in a given place is
unprejudiced. Let them then determine their methods and policy. Bahais
are not courageous enough in this matter. Bahais are really the only ones
that have the ideals and sincerity. Discrimination should not be exercised
on color lines, although it may be necessary on intellectual lines in such
matters as appointing committees for Bahai work.

World Unity was one of the divisive elements in the Cause which has
passed away. I asked if the failure of this experiment indicated that the
indirect method of teaching should not be used. He said that in some cases
one had to be cautious and not use the Bahai name, but generally it is
better to use the name.

Keirella and Mohammad Ali headed another scism which failed. Mrs. White
another. She is mentally unbalanced and Shoghi Effendi does not consider
her responsible. The New history Society is another such movement. This
is kept going by Mrs. Chanler's money and Ahmad's personality. Both will
pass. Schism is impossible in the Cause because Baha U'llah provided
against it in an unmistakable way. The New History Society does what
they criticize the Bahais for doing. They have much more organization than
the

[page 4]

Bahais. Ahmad Sohrab is dependent on others for money. He is also clever.
Mrs. Chanler was sincere at first but became too much influenced by
Ahmad. The best of the people in the New History Society will eventually
learn the Truth. This episode is hard for New York and they are not over it
yet. Berlin also had a very bad start. It has often happened that the Bahai
movement has had a bad start in a given city. Shoghi Effendi was very
much pleased to receive a letter signed by about fifty believers in
Berlin.

Mrs. Ford is well liked in London. In other places as well.

Bahais will have little to do with establishing the new world order. Of
course this fact should not prevent them from serving the Cause to the
utmost of their ability. Unity among the Bahais of the U.S. is much better
than it was seven or eight years ago. The tasks they now face are teaching
the Cause and building the Temple. The new plan of Unified Action is good
and practicable. The local and national assemblies are important as
foundations of the new political order. Obedience to the majority must be
established.

Soon there will be a chain of Bahai centers between Constantinople and
Paris connecting East and West. Pilgrims to Haifa can visit these. Sofia,
Albania, Dresden and Vienna have believers. The believers in
Constantinople are timid about organizing. He asked me especially to tell
the American friends about these places, so the pilgrims can plan to visit
them.

If a group of about four American Bahais go to Persia they should be
united, a working group. There would be advantages for any individual who
should go to Persia. He or she could master the language in about a year. A
study of Nabil's Narrative will be advantageous to anyone going to Persia.
A study of Persian in America is not practicable now but eventually
America will have to have a teacher of Persian.

In reply to questions from a young person as to choosing a profession,
Shoghi Effendi said that the ideal is to give half one's time to the Cause
and half to earning one's living. He advised a young person who wishes to
help in spreading the Bahai teachings to master the Iqan and the
Answered
Questions. Select passages for memorizing so as to be able to quote
without referring to books. Persian teachers do this. Someone spoke about
memorizing whole Tablets and all the Hidden Words. He said it was better
to make selections for memorizing.

It is all right to make use of outlines in studying the teachings, but one
should not make a creed of what any teacher gives out.

Nabil's Narrative will make us more conversant with the early history
than the Persians. Their knowledge is fragmentary. We should memorize
the most important proper names in this book. It was written between
1890 and 1892. Baha U'llah encouraged Nabil to write it and made some
suggestions about the book. Abdul-Baha revised certain passages.

Prejudice will be overcome only through suffering.

No religion is final, not even the Bahai. In the Hidden Words Baha U'llah
says that in this revelation only two letters are given; B and H. This
indications further revelation. Progressive revelation is the basis of Bahai
Teachings. Unity of mankind is the distinguishing feature of the Bahai
revelation

When asked whether he felt rested after his vacation he said that he came
back rested, but already begins to get tired. He has worked very hard this
fall. The Bahai work is still highly centralized although the National
Assemblies have taken

[page 5]

over much. He said that the amount of service rendered by the American
Bahais, particularly those on the N.S.A. was remarkable when we consider
that those Bahais carry on their own individual professions too.

Bahais should understand that there is no interdiction of marriage with
non-believers. (In fact such marriage with a non-believer may be good. The
Bahai may win his mate to be a believer..) But Bahais must claim the right
of their religion, must be free to exercise their religion just as members
of other religious bodies are. This is very difficult in case of marriage
with Catholics.

The so-called marriage Tablet in the blue prayer book is probably only a
report of a talk to an individual. The ceremony for a Bahai marriage is in
the Akdas. When this is translated it will be required of all Bahais in
addition to civil marriage. Also consent of both parents must be gained for
a Bahai marriage. This will make a testing ground in the future. On points
like this, Bahais will have to show their loyalty; i.e., Bahais will sooner or
later have to take firm stand as members of a corporate religious body.

In regard to keeping the fast in a family where some members are not
Bahai, he said that firmness, tact, and faith would enable one to do this.
The fast is of such duration. If a doctor is consulted he should be one that
both people have confidence in.

Then someone asked about prayer he said; "Pour out your heart to God
freely and fully. Then do something. God cannot work through you unless
you act. In case of illness consult and expert doctor." One person said she
prayed for a professor to become a Bahai. He said to pray not only that a
professor but other capable people become Bahais, those who are position
to attract those whom we cannot. Difficult ties in a group will not be
removed by prayer alone. All must rise to consult and act to remove
difficulties.

Directions about obligatory prayer are as reported by Mrs. True and Mrs.
Moffat. The only obligatory group praying is a burial prayer which is not
yet translated.

The Bahai idea of God is of a personal God, not an idea of God as a blind
force. A personal God is a conscious God, but not an anthropomorphic God.
This came out in a discussion of Dr. Forel and his relations to the Bahai
movement. Dr. Forel did not fully understand the Bahai idea of God.

Regarding someone who claimed to get messages from Abdul Baha in the
other world, Shoghi Effendi said that she should not impose her supposed
messages on anyone else. Abdul Baha had said that most of such
communications is imagination. Psychic experiences are an especial
temptation to spiritual people, and if they gain strength this way and don't
impose their communications on others, it is all right. They should be
willing to admit, however, that about 80% of such supposed
communication is imagination. It is very hard to draw the line between
psychic and spiritual. Psychic activities if carried to excess lead to bad
health and insanity. The Tablet on phychic forces addressed to Anna Mason
Hoar, (Star, Vol. 10, p344,) Shoghi Effendi thinks poorly translated,
overstated. He would like to see the original.

Having teachers give all their time to the Cause is an exceptional
occurance. This one half time plan (of dividing one's time between service
to the Cause and to one's profession) enables one to observe both kinds of
worship and tends to keep one balanced.

METADATA

Views16526 views since posted 1997; last edit 2025-09-30 13:14 UTC;

previous at archive.org.../paine_notes_table_talk;
URLs changed in 2010, see archive.org.../bahai-library.org
Language
English
Permission
public domain
History
Typed 1997 by Robert Stauffer.
Share

Shortlink: bahai-library.com/752
Citation: ris/752

select Collection:
Archives
Articles
Articles-unpublished
Audio
Bibliographies
BIC
Biographies
Books
Chronologies
Compilations
Compilations-NSA
Compilations-personal
Documents
East-asia
Encyclopedia
Essays
Etc
Excerpts
Fiction
Glossaries
Guardian
Histories
Introductory
Letters
Maps
Music
Newspapers
NSA-documents
NSA-letters
Personal
Pilgrims
Poetry
Presentations
Resources
Reviews
Scripts
Software
Statistics
Study
Talks
Theses
Transcripts
Translations
UHJ-documents
UHJ-letters
Video
Visual
Writings

home

sitemap

series

chronology

search:
author

title

date

tags

adv. search
languages

inventory

bibliography

abbreviations

links

about

contact

RSS

new

Scelga un secondo testo da leggere in parallelo — una traduzione o qualsiasi altro testo.